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Obama seals Records of Murdered Border Patrol Agent Implicated in Fast and Furious Congress members vote no confidence against AG Holder

#121 User is offline   SAS Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 11:10 PM

View Postjetguyz, on 15 January 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Obviously you only read what you want to read and ignore the opening paragraph of the article I posted.
Since you obviously intentionally refused to acknowledge that I have already posted the article about "Project Gunrunner in 2005" ...and yet here you are condescendingly claim that only you knew about Project Gunrunner".

Here`s the quote from the article I posted in my previous posting about Project Gunrunner.


So "might" turns to "for all you know" and "really have no idea now or do we?"...izzit?

FACT is why would Obama want to shield Bush involvement if it is really Bush`s project esp when Election 2012 is near and any incriminating evidences of the previous Republican president would benefits him?

FACT is YOU do not know what`s the EXACT reason/s Obama sealed the records...and yet trying to justify Obama`s sealing of the records which most probably could and would incriminate him and Eric Holder in the Fast and Furious scandal.
(NOTHING to do with "Project Gunrunner" from previous Admin since as president Obama could shut it down if he did not intend to use it for his sinister purposes.)

You are speculating and manipulating misinformation just to discredit the previous president, when the Project Gunrunner from the last presidency was actually above board, since Congress awarded the ATF with additional funding then.

It is only when Obama took over as president when "Project Gunrunner" turns into a sinister "Fast and Furious" operation under Eric Holder, resulting in the murder of Federal agents (which were kept in the dark about the REAL intention of ATF and Holder.)


I have read what you posted. And as I made it clear Operation Fast and Furious is not a seperate and independant operation despite what might be suggested

Operation Fast and Furious did not mutate from Project Gunrunner. It is part of Project Gunrunner, just as Project Wide Receiver was. Your article would like us to believe that the original Project Gunrunner was successful and became something else as Operation Fast and Furious. This is clearly not the case.

Operation Fast and Furious and the former Operation Wide Receiver are under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner.

Had you read the links provided you would have seen the full articles.

You would also have seen this "...Even those cases against low-level straw buyers are problematic for the ATF. There is no federal firearms trafficking law, making it difficult to prosecute cases. So law enforcement agencies resort to a wide variety of laws that do not carry stringent penalties — particularly for straw buyers..."

The articles linked provide information that both Fast and Furious as well as Wide Receiver used the same methods with equally disasterous results.

It also made clear that despite the belief otherwise, under Project Wide Receiver, guns went from the US into Mexico and disappeared, and this despite the involvement of the Mexican authorities.

To claim that Fast and Furious was the first disaster is historically wrong because it happened before when Project Wide Receiver was run under Operation Gunrunner, the same when Project Fast and Furious was run under Operation Gunrunner.

Fact is that when it failed in 2007 as it did it could have been shut down. Fact - It wasn't. Fact - It was allowed to continue and became something that the new Adminsitartaion had to deal with.

Fact is that you don't know why it was sealed. Fact - you only know it was sealed. Fact - you go about insisting that it is something sinister. Fact - You have no more information about why it was sealed only the fact that it was sealed. Fact - the articles you are putting up are speculating as I am why it was sealed.

Ergo, I have as much right to put up speculation on why it was sealed as you have the right to put up speculative information. If you insist that what I speculate is misinformation then the same applies to the speculation you have put up.

It is questionable if Project Gunrunner was actually overboard. Would Congress have granted further funding if it was known that instead of imtercepting illicit arms as is required by the DOJ's longstanding policy Project Gunrunner allowed for illicit arms to walk into Mexico and disappear? Maybe. But I personally don't think Congress would have said yes had they known that Project Gunrunner was not all it proported itself to be.
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#122 User is offline   jetguyz Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:22 PM

View PostOne_of_us, on 15 January 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

"It would do well to know" ??? It seems that you cannot read!

Both SAS with information about Project Gunrunner and my previous post about the genesis of the problem by Bush failing to extend the Federal Assault Weapons Ban act can tell you what is there to know, if you have the willingness to be informed.

But it is so obvious that your purpose is to bash Obama, like so many like you, blowing up the incident where ONE border patrol officer was killed by assault weapon, and ignoring the cases of tens of police officers who were killed by the bad guys with the assault weapons the Republicans have authorized citizens to possess.

This is interesting... As a person free of criminal record and thanks to GW Bush, I could buy all the assault weapons I want. I haven't been approached by the Mexican mafia yet, so I don't know how much money they will give me by passing on the guns I can buy to them.

Such stupid, stupid Republicans!! All this aberrant disregard for the security of a civil population to... let believe some idealists that we can stand up in arms against any invaders that threaten our liberties... What will help us instead is to stand up to the idiocy of the Republicans !!

<irrelevant off-topic ranting and wailing without credible evidences and manipulating facts to justify anti-Republicans obsession>...posting ignored!
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#123 User is offline   jetguyz Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:19 PM

View PostSAS, on 15 January 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Operation Fast and Furious, since you obviously don't know, is under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner whose apporval was given in 2006. Operation Fast and Furious is not a seperate and independant operation despite what might be suggested. Thus if it weren't for the existence of Project Gunrunner you wouldn't have had Operation Fast and Furious.

What you article got wrong was

1) Operation Fast and Furious was part of Project Gunrunner and not an independant one.

2) That during Operation Wide Receiver (2006 - 2007) which was also part of Project Gunrunner, much of the supposed tracked arms also went missing after it was sold and taken over the border.

For all you know the deliberate sealing of the records may indeed be an attempt to hide the actions of a certain former President who allowed this matter to escalate to the size it is now. But of course since the records were sealed, we really have no idea now or do we?

Obviously you only read what you want to read and ignore the opening paragraph of the article I posted.
Since you obviously intentionally refused to acknowledge that I have already posted the article about "Project Gunrunner in 2005" ...and yet here you are condescendingly claim that only you knew about Project Gunrunner".

Here`s the quote from the article I posted in my previous posting about Project Gunrunner.

Quote

ATF Death Watch 53: The Truth About Operation Fast and Furious

Posted on August 8, 2011 by Robert Farago and Ralph Dixon

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is the agency charged with enforcing federal gun laws. In 2005, the Bureau launched Project Gunrunner. They established the program to stop gun smugglers from buying and exporting weapons from gun dealers to Mexican drug cartels.
Project Gunrunner led to the arrest of hundreds of so-called straw purchasers: citizens with clean criminal records buying firearms illegally on the behalf of criminals.
The ATF claimed they were stemming an “Iron River” of illegal guns headed south. Despite an Inspector General report condemning the ATF for failing to catch “the big fish,” Congress rewarded the ATF with additional funding. In 2009, Project Gunrunner mutated into something far more sinister: Operation Fast and Furious
===


So "might" turns to "for all you know" and "really have no idea now or do we?"...izzit?

FACT is why would Obama want to shield Bush involvement if it is really Bush`s project esp when Election 2012 is near and any incriminating evidences of the previous Republican president would benefits him?

FACT is YOU do not know what`s the EXACT reason/s Obama sealed the records...and yet trying to justify Obama`s sealing of the records which most probably could and would incriminate him and Eric Holder in the Fast and Furious scandal.
(NOTHING to do with "Project Gunrunner" from previous Admin since as president Obama could shut it down if he did not intend to use it for his sinister purposes.)

You are speculating and manipulating misinformation just to discredit the previous president, when the Project Gunrunner from the last presidency was actually above board, since Congress awarded the ATF with additional funding then.

It is only when Obama took over as president when "Project Gunrunner" turns into a sinister "Fast and Furious" operation under Eric Holder, resulting in the murder of Federal agents (which were kept in the dark about the REAL intention of ATF and Holder.)
What the believer believes the prover proves..............Robert Anton Wilson
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#124 User is offline   One_of_us Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 12:41 PM

View Postjetguyz, on 15 January 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Instead of assumption, presumptions and or trying to justify the horrendous actions of the Obama Admin, it would do well to know the REAL reason why and when Operation Fast and Furious was given the green-light.


"It would do well to know" ??? It seems that you cannot read!

Both SAS with information about Project Gunrunner and my previous post about the genesis of the problem by Bush failing to extend the Federal Assault Weapons Ban act can tell you what is there to know, if you have the willingness to be informed.

But it is so obvious that your purpose is to bash Obama, like so many like you, blowing up the incident where ONE border patrol officer was killed by assault weapon, and ignoring the cases of tens of police officers who were killed by the bad guys with the assault weapons the Republicans have authorized citizens to possess.

This is interesting... As a person free of criminal record and thanks to GW Bush, I could buy all the assault weapons I want. I haven't been approached by the Mexican mafia yet, so I don't know how much money they will give me by passing on the guns I can buy to them.

Such stupid, stupid Republicans!! All this aberrant disregard for the security of a civil population to... let believe some idealists that we can stand up in arms against any invaders that threaten our liberties... What will help us instead is to stand up to the idiocy of the Republicans !!
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#125 User is offline   SAS Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 09:19 AM

Operation Fast and Furious, since you obviously don't know, is under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner whose apporval was given in 2006. Operation Fast and Furious is not a seperate and independant operation despite what might be suggested. Thus if it weren't for the existence of Project Gunrunner you wouldn't have had Operation Fast and Furious.

What you article got wrong was

1) Operation Fast and Furious was part of Project Gunrunner and not an independant one.

2) That during Operation Wide Receiver (2006 - 2007) which was also part of Project Gunrunner, much of the supposed tracked arms also went missing after it was sold and taken over the border.

Quote



Quote



For all you know the deliberate sealing of the records may indeed be an attempt to hide the actions of a certain former President who allowed this matter to escalate to the size it is now. But of course since the records were sealed, we really have no idea now or do we?
Ferrator Mortis Sum
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Despair walks in Her wake
Is this Men's Destiny?
To Dream? To Desire?
Oh Delightful Delirium... ...
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#126 User is offline   jetguyz Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 02:22 AM

Instead of assumption, presumptions and or trying to justify the horrendous actions of the Obama Admin, it would do well to know the REAL reason why and when Operation Fast and Furious was given the green-light.

OOPS!..it is in the fall of 2009....isn`t that when Obama is president?
Could something that big be given the green-light without the president`s knowledge or approval?

If Obama did not know or approved Operation Fast and Furious, then either he is really a buffoon or he is Eric Holder`s boy-toy puppet.
And if he claimed not to know, then why did he immediately sealed the records of the Murdered Patrol Agent Implicated in the scandal when Holder was hauled up for investigation by Congress?

Not to mention YouTube video shows that the order to launched the Fast and Furious comes from none other than the Executive Branch, namely the president.

Quote

ATF Death Watch 53: The Truth About Operation Fast and Furious

Posted on August 8, 2011 by Robert Farago and Ralph Dixon

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is the agency charged with enforcing federal gun laws. In 2005, the Bureau launched Project Gunrunner. They established the program to stop gun smugglers from buying and exporting weapons from gun dealers to Mexican drug cartels. Project Gunrunner led to the arrest of hundreds of so-called straw purchasers: citizens with clean criminal records buying firearms illegally on the behalf of criminals. The ATF claimed they were stemming an “Iron River” of illegal guns headed south. Despite an Inspector General report condemning the ATF for failing to catch “the big fish,” Congress rewarded the ATF with additional funding. In 2009, Project Gunrunner mutated into something far more sinister: Operation Fast and Furious.

During Project Gunrunner, ATF agents arrested straw purchasers before weapons crossed the U.S. – Mexican border. In Operation Fast and Furious, ATF agents made no attempt to arrest either the original purchaser or the criminal who received the illegally purchased firearms. In some cases, ATF agents hand-delivered weapons to gun smugglers. In all cases, the federal law enforcement agency let the smuggled guns “walk” across the border.

Several American gun dealers (who had not been informed of the sting operation ahead of time) were immediately suspicious of the straw purchasers, many of whom bought multiple guns multiple times. The gun dealers contacted the ATF and requested guidance or intervention. The ATF told the dealers to complete the transactions and let the weapons go.

As expected, straw purchasers smuggled these semi-automatic rifles and handguns across the U.S. border into the hands of Mexican drug cartel members. Hundreds and then thousands of semi-automatic rifles and handguns disappeared into the hands of vicious criminals.


Concerned ATF agents monitoring the sales understood the danger to Mexicans and Americans alike. They begged their superiors for permission to interdict the guns at the U.S. border. All such requests were summarily refused.

Within months, Fast and Furious-enabled firearms began to show up at Mexican crime scenes via the ATF’s eTrace tracking system. It’s not possible to determine how many Mexicans were murdered by cartel members using Fast and Furious firearms. All parties involved admit that the numbers reached into the hundreds.

ATF agents at the sharp end became increasingly disturbed by the notion of drug thugs using Bureau-enabled guns to murder rivals and innocent civilians. They worried that cartel members would use the guns against U.S. law enforcement officials. The agents published their discontent on a website called cleanupatf.org. Gun bloggers David Cordrea and Mike Vanderboegh pursued the story.

Inevitably, the agents’ worst fears were realized. Some of the ATF-enabled weapons found their way back into the United States. When one or more members of a “rip crew” (ripping off drug smugglers) used one of the Fast and Furious guns to murder U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, the ATF’s wall of silence was breached.

With inside info and prodding from pro-gun bloggers, Congressman Darrell Issa and Senator Chuck Grassley began investigating. The ATF stonewalled their requests for information, refusing to provide key documents. The Bureau threatened retaliation against ATF line agents who raised objections to Fast and Furious—both during and after the Operation.

After zealous digging by the Gun Rights Examiner and The Sipsey Street Irregulars, after three House Oversight Committee hearings and some better-late-than-never coverage by CBS, Fox and others, the details of Project Fast and Furious began to emerge. We now have information about Operation Fast and Furious that Bureau managers withheld from ATF line agents tasked with overseeing its implementation.

We now know that cartel criminals used a Fast and Furious .50 caliber rifle to shoot at a Mexican military helicopter that was subsequently forced to land. Two other Fast and Furious weapons were used by members of the Sinaloa cartel in the kidnapping, torture and murder of high-profile Mexican attorney Mario González Rodríguez, the brother of a state prosecutor in Mexico.

We now know that many of the so-called straw purchasers were paid FBI informants.
William Newell, Former ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix Field Division, testified before Congress that the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA), and Immigrations and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) were “full partners” in Operation Fast and Furious.

We now know that senior ATF officials in Washington were regularly briefed on Operation Fast and Furious. Agent Newell testified that he discussed the gun smuggling operation with Kevin O’Reilly, a staffer on President Obama’s National Security Council.
The White House knew the program’s risks and nevertheless approved of the Operation and its tactics.

We now know that Operation Fast and Furious was not the only ATF gun smuggling program. The ATF ran “Operation Castaway” out of their Tampa office. Hundreds of guns moved from Florida straw purchasers into Honduras, ultimately bound for Mexican cartels. Castaway firearms have been connected to several crimes in Puerto Rico and a murder in Colombia.

Operation Fast and Furious resulted in twenty indictments against low-level gunrunners—most of which were made immediately after Agent Terry’s murder, once the program came to light. Weighed against the deaths of Border Patrol Agent Terry, Mario González Rodríguez and countless others, the operation’s costs seem to heavily outweigh the return.

All of which begs the question: why did the ATF allow the guns to walk? How could such an obviously dangerous program—a “sting” that violated Mexican sovereignty—ever have been implemented?

When Operation Fast and Furious broke cover, gun-bloggers “revealed” the ATF’s motives. The Bureau wanted to create an Iron River. Guns eTraced from the U.S. to Mexico would enhance their power, prestige and budgetary allocation. At the same time, the ATF could use the stats generated by their anti-gun running gun running “sting” to attack the Second Amendment and, thus, usher in legislation to restrict Americans who wish to buy, sell or keep firearms.

From Project Gunrunner to Operation Fast and Furious, “never waste a good crisis” morphed into “never miss a chance to create a good crisis.” Allegedly.


To understand the truth about Operation Fast and Furious, you have to see the bigger picture . . .

Mexico is at war. Rival drug cartels and the Mexican military are fighting a bloody battle for control of the country and tens of billions of dollars worth of illegal income. In the last five years, more than 40,000 Mexicans have died in this internecine conflict. Twice as many people have been tortured. Tens of millions of Mexicans live in fear for their lives, without any civil liberties (including gun rights).

=====In Mexico, drug cartels are now in charge of huge swathes of territory, including large cities like Ciudad Juarez. Within their strongholds, cartels own the police, judiciary and prison system. They’ve murdered and tortured the press into silence. They are, literally, a law unto themselves.

One Mexican drug cartel has risen above all the rest: Los Zetas.

Los Zetas was founded by a group of former Grupo Aeromóvil de Fuerzas Especiales (Special Forces Airmobile Group), deemed to be among Mexico’s military elite. Los Zetas drafted-in former federal, state, and local police officers as well as “ordinary” soldiers. They’ve formed an alliance with Guatemala’s jungle warfare specialists Los Kaibiles.

===========Both Robert Plumlee, a former CIA pilot and Phil Jordan, a former CIA operative and DEA director, claim Los Zetas have stockpiled thousands of weapons to disrupt and influence Mexico’s national elections in 2012. Los Zetas end game: a seat at the government table. Guatemala also elects its national leaders in 2012. In both countries, there’s a very real chance that Los Zetas could subvert the political process completely and stage a successful coup d’etat.

All that stands between Los Zetas’ leaders and complete hegemony: the governments of Mexico and Guatemala and their “friendly” drug cartels. Just last week, Mexico completed operation Lince Norte (“Northern Lynx”), a 20-day attack on Los Zetas by 4,000 Mexican troops. The Mexican military boasted they’d killed Nuevo Laredo’s Zeta boss and the arrested a cartel financial manager.

The Mexican and Guatemalan governments remain under siege. Neither has enough trustworthy forces to be assured of victory against Los Zetas.

The United States is assisting Mexico’s fight against Los Zetas every way it can. Last year, the U.S. State Department’s Direct Commercial Sales Program doled-out some $416.5 million worth of weapons and equipment to the Mexican military. U.S. taxpayers have stumped up more than a billion dollars to fund the so-called Merida Initiative, providing equipment and training to Mexico’s security agencies.

Despite all that time, effort, material and money, the situation in Mexico continues to disintegrate. Whatever help the U.S. has given to Mexico, it hasn’t been enough. And that includes Operation Fast and Furious.

The ATF’s claim that they created Operation Fast and Furious to to bust the Mexican cartels’ “big fish” strains credulity. The guns weren’t tracked. In fact, they were un-trackable. The ATF has no jurisdiction in Mexico. Mexico’s law enforcement and military are suffused with cartel spies and allies. The Mexican government was never informed about the program in the first place. There was no way of closing the supposed trap.

If the ATF intended to create a program that was designed to fail, it could not have done a better job than Operation Fast and Furious. But it wasn’t and they didn’t. Operation Fast and Furious was created to funnel weapons from American gun stores to anti-Zeta cartel members on the border. In this it was successful.

From its inception in the fall of 2009 to its termination roughly a year later, ATF-enabled smugglers walked at least 2000 weapons across the border. Because of the murders of Agent Terry and Agent Zapata, the Operation Fast and Furious never hit its stride. Had not sunk of its own weight, Operation Fast and Furious would still be funneling thousand of weapons into Mexico.

In retrospect, it seems clear that the federally licensed firearms dealers who filled the straw purchasers’ trucks with weapons were supposed to be the fall guys, should Operation Fast and Furious come to light. That ploy has failed. The ATF has been left holding the bag, with a Congressional committee hard at their heels.

Operation Fast and Furious’ disintegration and the ATF’s attempt to sweep it under the rug in no way implies that the ATF set the wheels in motion. On the contrary, the Bureau never had a “Plan B” if Fast and Furious went off the rails. Can they really be that stupid? Unlikely.

Since 2009 or before, the American intelligence community has feared that Mexico was becoming politically and thus militarily unstable. The U.S. military quietly but not secretly stepped up its training of Mexican security forces. Meanwhile, the CIA added Mexico to their watch list, right up here with al-Qaida.

The CIA should know. The relationship between the CIA and the anti-Zetas cartels goes back some twenty years. The former Guadalajara Cartel, Mexico’s top narco traffickers in the 1980s, was protected by Miguel Nassar Haro, Chief of Mexico’s Dirección Federal de Seguridad. Haro was a CIA asset. Most of the territory formerly dominated by the Guadalajara Cartel was taken over by the Sinaloa and Gulf Cartels, both blood enemies of Los Zetas.

Yesterday’s New York Times reported that the U.S. is now sending “new” CIA operatives and retired military personnel to Mexico to help the federal government fight Los Zetas.
Uncle Sam’s (Obama Admin) also looking at deploying private security contractors. Clearly, in the run-up to that Mexico’s national elections, the U.S. federal government’s concerns about the Mexican government’s survival are increasing.

Between these two events: Operation Fast and Furious. TTAG’s contacts tell us that the CIA is behind the ATF’s decision to let guns walk from American gun stores. The Agency saw Fast and Furious as a way to arm anti-Zeta cartels. Specifically, the Sinaloa cartel. They worked with the ATF, killing two birds with one stone: increasing the ATF’s credibility in Washington and countering Los Zetas’ power.

As for the involvement of the FBI, DEA, ICE, DHS (Department of Homeland Security), CPB (U.S. Customs and Border Protection) and the U.S. State Department, think Murder on the Orient Express. A CIA-originated and orchestrated anti-Zetas gun smuggling program gave everyone a piece of the action.

It explains the fact that the federal agencies in charge of patrolling the Mexican border failed to intercept a single “Gunwalker” gun. It explains Mexico’s silence about the ATF’s violation of their sovereignty. (President Felipe Calderon keeping a lid on the CIA’s role in Mexican politics lest The Company reveal his cronies’ connection with the Sinaloa cartel.)

It explains the ATF big-wigs’ high-fiving when Operation Fast and Furious guns were recovered at a crime scene; they were celebrating when Sinaloa cartel members used a Fast and Furious gun to kill Zetas. A practice suggests that the ATF’s top bureaucrats knew Operation Fast and Furious’ real goal, even if their front line agents did not.

The so-called Gunwalker scandal proves that America’s multi-billion dollar “War on Drugs” is an utter sham. Our government was (is?) involved in a drugs for guns conspiracy. The scandal also highlights the fact that America’s Mexican border is all but completely porous. If the Sinaloas can fly a 747 filled with cocaine into the U.S. with official approval, what’s to stop them bringing in something worse?

All this and more to stop Los Zetas from taking control of Mexico (and Guatemala).

Strange to say, a Mexican military-style dictatorship might force America to seal our southern border. No drugs and illegal immigrants in. No guns out. (Unless we sold weapons to the junta.) Meanwhile and in any case, one wonders if Congress will explore the CIA connection to Operation Fast and Furious or let sleeping dogs lie in the interest of “national security.” Watch this space.

Full version here

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#127 User is offline   jetguyz Icon

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:41 AM

View PostSAS, on 14 January 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

He might be trying to hide the actions of a former president who in 2006 would have been the one who gave the initial go ahead which in the end led to the death of an ATF agent.

Might?
Is that your assumption or are there credible evidences to substantiate that?
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#128 User is offline   One_of_us Icon

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 10:42 PM

View PostSAS, on 14 January 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

He might be trying to hide the actions of a former president who in 2006 would have been the one who gave the initial go ahead which in the end led to the death of an ATF agent.

You are totally correct in that the responsibility for this whole mess rests on a Republican administration and the Republican congress at the time.

It was in September of 2004 that they let expire the Federal Assault Weapons Ban act that for 10 years had prohibited the manufacture and sale of assault weapons to the general public. They didn't extend the act or replaced it with an even tougher law!

THIS IS THE PRIMARY CAUSE FOR THE FAST AND FURIOUS MESS.

If the assault weapons ban would be still in effect none of these sales of arms, in fact the whole covert operation, would have taken place.

If one can blame Obama for something, it is for his weakness of character that made him miss so many opportunities for improvements. He could have pushed for a renewal of the above act when he had Congress in the hands of Democrats.

The GOP (the Republicans) fully deserved their defeat in 2008. Now they fully deserve another strong defeat in 2012. Because it is much preferable to have a president who misses opportunities for improvements, than to have a GOP president who does not miss opportunities for screwing up!

It is such an irony that the Republicans, who typically think of themselves as smarter, more educated than the Democrats, have such strong mental handicaps that turn them into such stupid, stupid, stupid individuals. They a.- support excesses of rights to bear arms (police departments all over the country are frustrated by criminals having better weapons than them) b.- don't recognize the fact of global warming (in spite of so much scientific evidence), and c.- oppose taxation, leading to run-away deficits and downgrade of America's credit rating.
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#129 User is offline   SAS Icon

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:53 PM

View Postjetguyz, on 11 January 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

The suddenly Obama seals the Records of Murdered Patrol Agent Implicated in the scandal!
What`s there to hide.....buffoon?


He might be trying to hide the actions of a former president who in 2006 would have been the one who gave the initial go ahead which in the end led to the death of an ATF agent.
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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:35 AM

The unfolding corruption and cover-ups of the DOJ and the Obama Admin. in the Fast and Furious Scandal.

Quote

Grassroots campaign puts pressure on Congress to call for Holder’s resignation

The Daily CallerBy Matthew Boyle - The Daily Caller | The Daily Caller – Mon, Nov 7, 2011

Conservative activist Joseph Connor has launched a grassroots effort asking voters to push their congressmen and senators to call for Attorney General Eric Holder’s immediate resignation.

To date 35 members of Congress, (57 Congress members as at 15 December 2011) all of them in the House of Representatives, have called for Holder’s departure from the Department of Justice.

“The [Operation] Fast and Furious scheme, where more than 2,000 rifles were knowingly and willfully allowed to be transported from the United States into Mexico, has now been linked to a number of deaths on both sides of the border, including two United States federal agents,” Connor wrote in an email sent out to conservative voters and activists. “The scandal has now become a full-scale criminal investigation enveloping several agencies.”

Connor’s letter explains some Americans’ skepticism of an internal investigation reportedly being conducted by Holder and DOJ Inspector General Cynthia Schnedar. “Ms. Schnedar has long ties to Mr. Holder, and she recently released secret tapes which compromised the investigation,” Connor writes. “Mr. Holder apparently has no intention to appoint a truly independent investigator.”

The email describes how, during the Clinton administration, Holder was a key officials who led the charge to pardon Puerto Rican terrorists from the Armed Forces for National Liberation (FALN). Those FALN terrorists, Connor wrote in August 2008, “proudly claimed responsibility for my father’s [Frank Connor’s] murder.”

“This kind of scandal and denial is nothing new to Mr. Holder,” Connor wrote of the aftermath of Operation Fast and Furious. “He has a demonstrated pattern of dangerous disregard for the American citizens he is sworn to protect. As Deputy Attorney General he engineered executive clemency for the unrepentant terrorists of the FALN and an international fugitive, Marc Rich, who sold arms to our enemies.”

“In order to maintain his effectiveness and insure the credibility of the Justice Department, The Attorney General of the United States must operate at a legal, honest and ethical level above reproach,” Connor continues. “Mr. Holder clearly falls short of those minimal requirements.”



Quote

Rep. Quayle Calls for Holder's "Immediate Resignation"

Thursday, 15 December 2011 17:09

This week, Representative Ben Quayle (R-AZ) became the 57th member of Congress to call for the resignation of Attorney General Eric Holder over the Fast and Furious scandal. In a statement, Rep. Quayle said:

"Fast and Furious was a fundamentally flawed operation. Since its implementation, U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and numerous Mexican citizens have been killed by criminals using weapons that were allowed to ‘walk’ during the program. These weapons continue to pose a grave threat to people living near the Southern border. These facts alone signify a lack of leadership and control within the Justice Department that warrant the removal of those people who authorized and failed to supervise this damaging operation.

“When the incredible failures of Fast and Furious came to light, Attorney General Holder and his subordinates chose the route of evasion over forthrightness. They provided documents to Congress only when compelled to produce them with subpoena. These documents revealed that on February 4, 2011, senior officials at the Justice Department, the ATF and the Arizona U.S. Attorney’s Office responded to an inquiry by Senator Charles Grassley with a letter that contained categorically false information. Ten months later, the Justice Department was forced to rescind that letter—a move the attorney general acknowledged is extremely rare. During last week’s testimony before the House Judiciary Committee, the attorney general refused to take responsibility or hold any of his subordinates accountable for their handling of Fast and Furious. Mr. Holder himself called the operation ‘wholly unacceptable’ and ‘fundamentally flawed.’

“The fact that he hasn’t fired a single person shows that Attorney General Holder is more concerned with protecting himself and his political appointees than holding individuals accountable for Fast and Furious. I have refrained from calling for his resignation until he had a chance to testify before the Judiciary Committee. Asking for a cabinet member to resign is a serious step and one I take very seriously. After reflecting on last week’s testimony, the operation, and Mr. Holder’s handling of the fallout, I have lost all confidence in his ability to lead the Justice Department. I call for his immediate resignation.”

What the believer believes the prover proves..............Robert Anton Wilson
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#131 User is offline   jetguyz Icon

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:07 AM

View PostOne_of_us, on 13 January 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

If it were just hearsay... No wonder SAS got an attack of laughter! We all do some hearsay here and there when we pass on rumors.

What this individual is showing is a concerted effort in offending, defaming (for who-knows-what obscure psychic malformations). He does this by picking out from the lowest sewers of the Internet the political waste products fabricated by people like him, so he has the excuse of "quoting other sources", instead of being man enough and having the balls to admit that he is a fabricator of that crap too.

Then he has the nerve, on top of his anti-social purposes, to claim that others contradict his crap and such contradictions are the "undesirable material that goes against the rules". There is some algebraic logic, which he doesn't know, supporting that contradicting filthy crap is something positive in itself.

This last crappy thread of him confirms all of the above. So what if the records of this episode are sealed? What will be hidden to the public? That the patrol agent died? And he is trying to make believe that Obama, a person who has immense responsibilities as head of state, has nothing else to do but going around sealing records? What nonsense is that?

<irrelevant and offensive posting without credible evidences to substantiate the issue ignored> SAS take note.
What the believer believes the prover proves..............Robert Anton Wilson
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#132 User is offline   One_of_us Icon

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 02:08 AM

View Postsailor, on 11 January 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Dear Jetz...

Let's assume that you are right and that I am stupid and all... would you please explain to me what you are trying to achief with your constantly accusing a FOREIGN head of state?

I mean, this is already the third thread you opened with the same topic. In the previous ones almost nobody reacted on you and those who did, opposed you.

Everything you come up with as "proof" is nothing more than hear say, something that won't stand in a court anywhere.

Don't you see that you're making a fool out of yourself and risk to be banned entirely?

If it were just hearsay... No wonder SAS got an attack of laughter! We all do some hearsay here and there when we pass on rumors.

What this individual is showing is a concerted effort in offending, defaming (for who-knows-what obscure psychic malformations). He does this by picking out from the lowest sewers of the Internet the political waste products fabricated by people like him, so he has the excuse of "quoting other sources", instead of being man enough and having the balls to admit that he is a fabricator of that crap too.

Then he has the nerve, on top of his anti-social purposes, to claim that others contradict his crap and such contradictions are the "undesirable material that goes against the rules". There is some algebraic logic, which he doesn't know, supporting that contradicting filthy crap is something positive in itself.

This last crappy thread of him confirms all of the above. So what if the records of this episode are sealed? What will be hidden to the public? That the patrol agent died? And he is trying to make believe that Obama, a person who has immense responsibilities as head of state, has nothing else to do but going around sealing records? What nonsense is that?
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#133 User is offline   jetguyz Icon

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:50 PM

Eric Holder Lied to Congress on Fast and Furious



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Obama Orders Launched Fast and Furious



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Holder Lied: DOJ News Release Shows Obama Admin Approved ATF Mexico Weapons Smuggling

Tim King Salem-News.com

Eric Holder gave false info. to a Congressional Committee last May about ATF operations tied to the deaths of two U.S. Agents; we have the proof.

(SALEM, Ore.) - (This is an update and overview: Report on Eric Holder & U.S. Weapons Smuggling Program to Mexico Making Rounds) New information indicates that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder's actions are squarely behind the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) operation known as "Fast and Furious", which orchestrated the delivery of almost 2,000 weapons to Mexican drug cartels[1].

Holder openly proclaimed his connection to the operation in April 2009 during a publicized speech in Mexico, then told a Congressional Committee in May 2011, "I probably heard of Fast and Furious the first time in the last few weeks."[2]

The ATF weapons smuggling ring involved the arrest of several government officials with the city of Columbus, New Mexico including the mayor and police chief, but that is all[3].

They were apparently known from the beginning and the weapons deals with 'straw buyers' were videotaped. Smuggled U.S. weapons from this operation, described as mostly semi automatic versions of military weapons like the AK-47, were found to be used in the shooting deaths of two U.S. federal agents.

The new information, which is not really new at all, proves that Holder had to be aware of the U.S. government weapons smuggling operation planned and implemented by federal agents from ATF which he denied to Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) less than two months ago, as detailed below.

What the believer believes the prover proves..............Robert Anton Wilson
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#134 User is offline   jetguyz Icon

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:39 PM

View Postsailor, on 11 January 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Dear Jetz...

Let's assume that you are right and that I am stupid and all... would you please explain to me what you are trying to achief with your constantly accusing a FOREIGN head of state?

I mean, this is already the third thread you opened with the same topic. In the previous ones almost nobody reacted on you and those who did, opposed you.

Everything you come up with as "proof" is nothing more than hear say, something that won't stand in a court anywhere.

Don't you see that you're making a fool out of yourself and risk to be banned entirely?

Do you know the difference between "ACCUSE" and "FACTS"?

If you are unwilling or intentionally refuse to keep abreast with the topic of the thread....then I am sorry, I do not want to waste my time explaining things which are WIDELY available on the Internet and even on YouTube.
Not to mention I have also posted the "Fast and Furious" scandals in my previous 2 locked threads on Obama and Eric Holder which you have also participated in.

Or perhaps according to my "heresay"...The Netherlands do not have access to the Internet, or even have TVs or radios?
What the believer believes the prover proves..............Robert Anton Wilson
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#135 User is offline   sailor Icon

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:25 PM

Yeah, just hearsay.... All he 'knows' is what others told him. He never was actually there when things happend.

It is quite common when one only picks up the bad things of someone one don't like and ignore the rest, nor asking themselves why that person did what he did or was forced to do.
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and so I followed the mob.
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#136 User is offline   SAS Icon

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 07:24 PM

Just hearsay? :blink: :blink:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ferrator Mortis Sum
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Despair walks in Her wake
Is this Men's Destiny?
To Dream? To Desire?
Oh Delightful Delirium... ...
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#137 User is offline   sailor Icon

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:59 PM

Dear Jetz...

Let's assume that you are right and that I am stupid and all... would you please explain to me what you are trying to achief with your constantly accusing a FOREIGN head of state?

I mean, this is already the third thread you opened with the same topic. In the previous ones almost nobody reacted on you and those who did, opposed you.

Everything you come up with as "proof" is nothing more than hear say, something that won't stand in a court anywhere.

Don't you see that you're making a fool out of yourself and risk to be banned entirely?
They used to tell me I was building a dream,
and so I followed the mob.
When there was earth to plough or guns to bear,
I was always there, right on the job.
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#138 User is offline   jetguyz Icon

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:07 AM

Quote

H. Res. 490: Expressing no confidence in the Attorney General of the United States

112th Congress: 2011-2012

Sponsor: Rep. Paul Gosar [R-AZ1]

Nearly 90 congress members vote no confidence against AG Eric Holder in the FAST AND FURIOUS SCANDALS.


The suddenly Obama seals the Records of Murdered Patrol Agent Implicated in the scandal!
What`s there to hide.....buffoon?

Quote

Obama Admin Seals Records of Murdered Border Patrol Agent Implicated in Fast and Furious

11:45 AM, Nov 30, 2011 • By MARK HEMINGWAY

And to think that Attorney General Eric Holder is getting testy about congressional calls for his resignation. After all, the Justice Department has nothing to hide, right?:

The Obama Administration has abruptly sealed court records containing alarming details of how Mexican drug smugglers murdered a U.S. Border patrol agent with a gun connected to a failed federal experiment that allowed firearms to be smuggled into Mexico.

This means information will now be kept from the public as well as the media. Could this be a cover-up on the part of the “most transparent” administration in history? After all, the rifle used to kill the federal agent (Brian Terry) last December in Arizona’s Peck Canyon was part of the now infamous Operation Fast and Furious. Conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the disastrous scheme allowed guns to be smuggled into Mexico so they could eventually be traced to drug cartels.

Link via Judicial Watch. The murder of a U.S. Border Patrol agent is related to the Justice Department willingly turning over thousands of guns to Mexican criminal gangs, and Obama administration is hiding information about his death from the public. Amazing.

What the believer believes the prover proves..............Robert Anton Wilson
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