[brents]

A great comment on “Dona Nobis Pacem” (a choral double fugue) from Bach’s Mass in B minor:

“After listening to Bach, one realizes how most music consists of cheap, recycled tricks to exert an effect upon the listener. This piece is the opposite of "false music" which promotes effect rather than substance. The double fugal structure reveals itself, and each iteration of the recurring motifs creates a new whole as the subjects and answers are passed between the voices. From 2:27 on it gets IMMENSE (3:01 for piano transcription), this might be the most powerful and true music ever written. Fractal-like and real.” - switzent, 2011


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=gMq44NLoVPc (original)

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9qc9nmc8mbY (piano transcription for those who wanted to hear the counterpoint more clearly, but with metronome ticks)

[One_of_us]

What a blessing that we have so many fine pianists that excel playing Bach. Here is Murray Perahia, who I think is second to none (just my subjective opinion)

[brents]

The thing about why Andras' recording of Well-Tempered Clavier is so highly regarded in classical circles is because of how meticulous and fine his playing is.

Sample 12:04 - 12:46, an excerpt from the great B minor fugue from book 1:



I've heard Glenn, Wanda and Gulda but their playing were still far from Andras', though they were respected players. Maybe some people like their music "rough"? I don't know.

[brents]

hjy, on 22 January 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood me.. I meant that Andras Schiff did not successfully convey this idea of a 'climax' at the 07:00-07:12 point, and the f minor chord at 07:15 wasn't brought out sufficiently to make an impact.

Using the pedal is a very personal approach... personally i would use the pedal (sparingly) when playing works by earlier composers, for various effects. I also agree with oneofus that if Bach's keyboard had a pedal he would probably have used it

I think you misunderstood the music. Andras had conveyed the idea of climax in 7:00-7:12 with a crescendo and the F minor suspended 4th chord isn't meant to be played loudly to make an "impact" because it's not the real ending. On the other hand, the Ab major chord at the end is the real impact but it doesn't have to be played loud.

[One_of_us]

hjy, on 22 January 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Using the pedal is a very personal approach... personally i would use the pedal (sparingly) when playing works by earlier composers, for various effects. I also agree with oneofus that if Bach's keyboard had a pedal he would probably have used it

I fully agree with you. In every music there are opportunities to let tones blend and increase the richness of the sound by allowing all the strings to resonate freely. In barroque and early classical music the pedal is pressed occasionally. But in later music the pedal is used most of the time, and the pianist not so much presses the pedal but releases it to dampen the sound and increase clarity where it is needed.

But good Andras Schiff seems to have been traumatized by the pedal, which he claims can cause "terrible damage"!! I cannot imagine that any decent pianist would allow his pedaling to cause terrible damage.

[pianox]

brents, on 21 January 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

The Ab major fugue is one of the better and one of my favourite major-key fugues in the 48. When I first heard it, I understood its emotions.

7:00-7:12 is the climax. It didn't "suddenly disappear"; that was a cadence. From the built-up since 7:00, at 7:14 the listener would logically be expecting a final tonic (Ab major) chord following dominant 7th chord (Eb in the bass, Db in the tenor, G in alto and Bb in soprano - thus a Eb 7th chord).

But Bach introduced F minor suspended 4th chord instead of the tonic chord which the listener was expecting to hear, thus catching the listener by surprise with a "deceptive cadence". It is like Bach is saying, "not the end, there's still more" and finally ended the fugue with a coda (with the subject in tonic key in soprano). Nice trick by the great master!

Bach's music is never "climaxless". It's either you don't get it or your life was too smooth-sailing to appreciate the emotions; like how I didn't get it when I first heard (when before I enlisted into NS) his unfinished fugue from Art of Fugue. I re-visited it as an adult and was blown away by the emotions of that great fugue.


What a coincidence! I was watching this video yesterday. But that's not the reason he said. I remembered, he said using the sustaining pedal will blur the counterpoint which is true in a way. Bach's fugues need to be played with great clarity in the voices in order to truly enjoy it.

I think you misunderstood me.. I meant that Andras Schiff did not successfully convey this idea of a 'climax' at the 07:00-07:12 point, and the f minor chord at 07:15 wasn't brought out sufficiently to make an impact.

Using the pedal is a very personal approach... personally i would use the pedal (sparingly) when playing works by earlier composers, for various effects. I also agree with oneofus that if Bach's keyboard had a pedal he would probably have used it

[brents]

hjy, on 21 January 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

I happen to have learnt the Ab major P*F before - the voicing is good, but overall its performance is rather blend, particularly in the fugue. The prelude gets better towards the end though.

i can't hear any moments of climaxes in the fugue, and it just seems to wander around aimlessly. Certain keys (05:56-06:00) need to stand out (as well as the ending F minor). I am particularly irked by how he crescendos and suddenlyt just disappears (from 07:00-07:15). We also need to bear in mind that despite this being a 4part fugue it is largely in 3 parts. Therefore, the thickening of texture (where it becomes 4 parts) is very important. The articulation in the prelude is not always consistent and one of the ornaments feel out of place.

I think gould's recording of this is better - more cheerful and dance-like, although Angela Hewitt seems to have romanticised it too much

The Ab major fugue is one of the better and one of my favourite major-key fugues in the 48. When I first heard it, I understood its emotions.

7:00-7:12 is the climax. It didn't "suddenly disappear"; that was a cadence. From the built-up since 7:00, at 7:14 the listener would logically be expecting a final tonic (Ab major) chord following dominant 7th chord (Eb in the bass, Db in the tenor, G in alto and Bb in soprano - thus a Eb 7th chord).

But Bach introduced F minor suspended 4th chord instead of the tonic chord which the listener was expecting to hear, thus catching the listener by surprise with a "deceptive cadence". It is like Bach is saying, "not the end, there's still more" and finally ended the fugue with a coda (with the subject in tonic key in soprano). Nice trick by the great master!

Bach's music is never "climaxless". It's either you don't get it or your life was too smooth-sailing to appreciate the emotions; like how I didn't get it when I first heard (when before I enlisted into NS) his unfinished fugue from Art of Fugue. I re-visited it as an adult and was blown away by the emotions of that great fugue.

One_of_us, on 21 January 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

We are all fortunate listeners. I have found an interesting video of Schiff. It is noteworthy how he finds that the piano is the most versatile instrument to play Bach's keyboard pieces. Yet the man doesn't like to use the piano pedal in Bach! (maybe this is why he sometimes sounds a little thin and bland). His reason is amazing: "why should I?" Hahaha... I can't imagine Bach having a modern piano and not using its pedal

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TdzLWKuo0YA

What a coincidence! I was watching this video yesterday. But that's not the reason he said. I remembered, he said using the sustaining pedal will blur the counterpoint which is true in a way. Bach's fugues need to be played with great clarity in the voices in order to truly enjoy it.

[One_of_us]

brents, on 18 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

2 of the most sublime pairs of prelude & fugue from Well-Tempered Clavier (book one's Bb minor and G minor), played by the finest Bach pianist (Andras Schiff) in one single youtube video. I must have been the most fortunate listener.

We are all fortunate listeners. I have found an interesting video of Schiff. It is noteworthy how he finds that the piano is the most versatile instrument to play Bach's keyboard pieces. Yet the man doesn't like to use the piano pedal in Bach! (maybe this is why he sometimes sounds a little thin and bland). His reason is amazing: "why should I?" Hahaha... I can't imagine Bach having a modern piano and not using its pedal

[One_of_us]

hjy, on 21 January 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

I think gould's recording of this is better - more cheerful and dance-like, although Angela Hewitt seems to have romanticised it too much

The version by Shiff is great, but I also find that Gould plays it more lively, yet more calmly. Go figure!

[One_of_us]

brents, on 20 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

A Bach "flash mob" in a train station in the US!

I think I know a person who would get so enchanted with the music that he would miss his train!

[pianox]

I happen to have learnt the Ab major P*F before - the voicing is good, but overall its performance is rather blend, particularly in the fugue. The prelude gets better towards the end though.

i can't hear any moments of climaxes in the fugue, and it just seems to wander around aimlessly. Certain keys (05:56-06:00) need to stand out (as well as the ending F minor). I am particularly irked by how he crescendos and suddenlyt just disappears (from 07:00-07:15). We also need to bear in mind that despite this being a 4part fugue it is largely in 3 parts. Therefore, the thickening of texture (where it becomes 4 parts) is very important. The articulation in the prelude is not always consistent and one of the ornaments feel out of place.

I think gould's recording of this is better - more cheerful and dance-like, although Angela Hewitt seems to have romanticised it too much

[brents]

Another 2 of the most sublime pairs of prelude & fugue from Well-Tempered Clavier (book one's F# minor and Ab major), played by the finest Bach pianist (Andras Schiff) in one single youtube video. The F# minor fugue is of hopeless desperate despair while the Ab major fugue is one of blissful joy and contentment.

[brents]

A Bach "flash mob" in a train station in the US!



If it happened here in sg, I doubt anyone would actually stop to listen. Most people would be rushing off to work.

[brents]

2 of the most sublime pairs of prelude & fugue from Well-Tempered Clavier (book one's Bb minor and G minor), played by the finest Bach pianist (Andras Schiff) in one single youtube video. I must have been the most fortunate listener.

[brents]

I always wanted some electronic sounds transcription for the opening movement from Bach's Double Violin concerto. Violin's sound is not strong enough for the energy required for this concerto's 1st movement:

[One_of_us]

I find that my enjoyment of Bach music is shifting to the interpretation of his music on piano, especially when played by Murray Perahia. Here is a good example:



And since I got the CD, my favorite Bach is Perahia's Goldberg variations, of which the following video is the end. It's not only the interpretation of the composition, but the quality, beauty of the sound produced.



When this music ends, that's it. Enough has been said in this form, until Chopin comes along decades later.


.

[brents]

Best Piano Composition; Six Parts Genius
By Charles Rosen
Published: April 18, 1999


The keyboard music of Johann Sebastian Bach cannot be called piano music, but there is one magnificent exception. Many musicians consider the six-voice ricercare from ''The Musical Offering'' to be his greatest fugue, and I would choose this as the most significant piano work of the millennium, as it is perhaps the first piece composed for the recently invented piano -- at least, the first piece that a composer knew would certainly be played on a piano.

It was on May 7, 1747, that Bach visited Frederick the Great at Potsdam. The Prussian king preferred the pianoforte -- then called ''forte and piano'' -- to the less nuanced harpsichord or the organ; so much so that he had 15 of the instruments built for him. During this visit the king led Bach from room to room to try them out. (Bach had encountered pianos before the royal visit; he had complained that their action was too heavy, their treble too weak.) Frederick played for Bach a theme of his own and then asked Bach to improvise a fugue on it. After Bach obliged with a three-voice fugue, the king demanded a more spectacular six-voice fugue. Bach improvised a six-voice fugue on a theme of his own, but on his return to Leipzig wrote out a six-voice fugue on the royal theme. He had it printed with a number of other works all based on the same theme, and sent it to Frederick as ''a musical offering.''

Along with that other great keyboard work of Bach's last years, ''The Art of Fugue,'' the six-voice ricercare is among the greatest achievements of Western European civilization, and like ''The Art of Fugue'' and ''The Well-Tempered Clavier'' (or Keyboard), it was intended for performance on any of the keyboard instruments that one could find at home -- harpsichord, clavichord, small portable organ or early piano. It goes well on all of them. But if Frederick the Great finally listened to it, he would have heard it on one of his Silbermann pianofortes.

The theme is noble, and Bach's development has a richness and a depth of expression that he never surpassed. Like ''The Art of Fugue,'' the ricercare has been arranged for other instruments, but it is essentially a work that has to be played on a keyboard. It can be appreciated above all by the performer: listening is only a poor second for the musical experience of immersing oneself actively in the polyphony, which here has an emotional and physically expressive impact rarely found in a work of music. It is a piece for meditation. The large-scale form is easy to grasp, and the texture is full and complex, moving from one to six voices and back with wonderful contrast. The composition does not emphasize contrapuntal virtuosity, but rather richness of harmony. The imaginative invention is dazzling. The 20th century rediscovered ''The Musical Offering,'' but pianists have yet to claim this greatest of fugues as their own.

http://www.youtube.c...okHwrnzI&fmt=18

[One_of_us]

In my previous post I mentioned that the obscurities of some of Bach's keyboard pieces resembles the obscurities of some music of Chopin when played very slowly, before it becomes nicely clear when it is played at its normal tempo.

Here is an example that could initially infuriate some admirers of Bach, but still it gets the point across and I'm terribly sorry for any bad feelings.

First a video with a piece of Chopin's Etude Op.25 No 11 played absurdly slow as a guide (maybe for pianists with arthritis?), sounding well... well... like Bach played at half tempo in one of his monumental musical abstractions...



And now, the notes in this Etude played at its intended tempo:



Now the obscurity is gone, replaced by profundity of enjoyment. Who would have thought that what started at 5:50 in the first video becomes what we hear at 2:30 here. And this great music was written as an EXERCISE for the fingers playing chromatic scales and arpegios...

Chopin was a genius, very much attuned to his role model Bach.

[One_of_us]

brents, on 04 August 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

A very great comment about Bach's music that I couldn't resist not posting:

"To me, Bach's music is the most profound balance between pure logic and pure humanity. A kind of proof that you don't have to be cold to be rational, nor irrational to be emotional. To me, it's proof of an inherent meaning to existence, beyond anything explainable by science. Why should sonic phenomena carry such deep emotional power for humans? It's not logical. Music connects all the best parts of our world to something greater, something more meaningful. It's clear why Bach was so spiritual."
- TheInspirationExpert, 3 months ago

Source: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZQWsOG7IJA0 (Ricercar a3, Musical Offering)

This music is very enjoyable. A highly intellectual following of a challeging line that does complex acrobacies without going anywhere, like what Kohei Uchimura and Gabby Douglas did at the Olympics (Bach was a little chubby for that, so he did acrobacies of composition)

I found a version of the Musikalisches Opfer on piano. Since I'm not Frederick the Great I don't care for the flute, and my ears get less dusty hearing a piano than a harpsichord.



Beautiful interpretation! Listening here reminds me of learning some pieces of Chopin, where on the first slow reading it all sounds funny, until one plays ahead and gets the big picture, and then it all turns out fabulous. So I find some similarity between this music and a fast complex piece of Chopin played at a very slow tempo.

[brents]

A very great comment about Bach's music that I couldn't resist not posting:

"To me, Bach's music is the most profound balance between pure logic and pure humanity. A kind of proof that you don't have to be cold to be rational, nor irrational to be emotional. To me, it's proof of an inherent meaning to existence, beyond anything explainable by science. Why should sonic phenomena carry such deep emotional power for humans? It's not logical. Music connects all the best parts of our world to something greater, something more meaningful. It's clear why Bach was so spiritual."
- TheInspirationExpert, 3 months ago

Source: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZQWsOG7IJA0 (Ricercar a3, Musical Offering)