[Touch_...]

bigbulge, on May 30 2011, 08:18 PM, said:

Kim is a very AJ friendly trainer. He has been one of the firendliest and most helpful staff there, as many would attest.



We have just heard one side of the story... it isnt fair when its just a fragmented account of what happened.

Could the friend have caused all that had befallen on him because of his remarks made at the equipment station?

Was the female trainer harrassed verbally by the friend at that point in time?



We would never know, just as we can hardly predict if it will be raining everyday....



sigh!

It may not be Kim but another trainer.

Only when California Fitness start to investigate and issue their statements then we may get a better picture. What is important is that actions should be taken by victims and his friends to ensure California Fitness management not to quietly ignore the case but to look into the matter.

So the point of the publicity is to "force" Cali gym to look into the matter and if there was any misinformation or misunderstanding or wrongdoings, then these could be discovered in the process of investigation.




Perhaps each of us can try to spread the news of this incident as wide as possible, and if the negative publicity of Cali is spread wide enough, California gym's management would then take reasonable action to address the compliant.

The victim should also make a police report, taking into the legal information provided by Veil of Ignorance in our forum here.

This post has been edited by Touch_Therapy: 30 May 2011 - 08:26 PM

[bigbulge]

Kim is a very AJ friendly trainer. He has been one of the firendliest and most helpful staff there, as many would attest.



We have just heard one side of the story... it isnt fair when its just a fragmented account of what happened.

Could the friend have caused all that had befallen on him because of his remarks made at the equipment station?

Was the female trainer harrassed verbally by the friend at that point in time?



We would never know, just as we can hardly predict if it will be raining everyday....



sigh!

[Touch_...]

Someone suggested to put up this incident on facebook and that will enhance the spread of this news. Maybe with more of such publicity California management will start to see a need to take action (e.g. issue apology etc).

So maptravel86, how about asking your friend or you helping him to create a facebook to publicise this incident?

btw, even the gay forum b w now knows of this incident and people there have started to discuss it.

This post has been edited by Touch_Therapy: 30 May 2011 - 08:15 PM

[maptra...]

Flannery, on May 30 2011, 07:52 PM, said:

This one is it?

http://www.facebook....8571917&sk=info

I have not seen this Mr K before so I am not sure whether it is him. But the name seen to *****. Only my friend know the answer.

Veil_of_Ignorance, on May 30 2011, 11:14 AM, said:

Why doesn't the actual victim directly post his experience here instead of asking a friend to do so?

That is a good idea. I have asked my friend to come to this forum to identify the photo and see the reply of the nice people here himself instead of me having to tell him all the reply here. He said ok and will be using the nickname "rainingeveryday" which is the same as the one he used in STOMP. Then I no need to pass the reply to him and help him to post here as he can see and post the reply directly here.

By the way, there is STOMPer reply that "California Fitness got a lot of gay"

There is this misconception that

gay friend = gay
sissy = gay
soft spoken = gay
Tigh clothing = gay
California Fitness member =gay

and the list go on.

Maybe that why that trainer scold my friend "a fucking gay" without any proof or evident whether he is gay or not. But that trainer forget that based on this stereotype, then

all personal trainer at CF = gay

Maybe that why my friend did not want to post here earlier because based on the stereotype,

All poster/member in a gay forum = gay

Anyway whether a person is gay or not, that anti-gay trainer should not scold people like that.

This post has been edited by maptravel86: 30 May 2011 - 08:38 PM

[maptra...]

Anyone has the staff photo of california fitness orchard branch so that it can help my friend to identify the name of the staff involved in this incident?My friend is still traumatized by the whole incident that he is not considering to go back to that gym at the moment for fear of further harassment by the staff.

A picture of the staff photo with names that they usually put on the wall in most gym can help too. I am not a member of that anti-gay gym so I can't help him.

[Flannery]

This one is it?

http://www.facebook....8571917&sk=info

[maptra...]

Touch_Therapy, on May 30 2011, 07:14 PM, said:

maptravel86,

Can share with us the initials of the name of that trainer?

And can pm me his name?

If my friend didn't remember wrongly, then Mr K = Mr K** L**
The answer can be found in their trainer staff photo noticeboard.

This post has been edited by maptravel86: 30 May 2011 - 07:25 PM

[Touch_...]

maptravel86,

Can share with us the initials of the name of that trainer?

And can pm me his name?

This post has been edited by Touch_Therapy: 30 May 2011 - 07:15 PM

[hongi]

My advise to your friend....

Don't be afright of them (CF)... go up to them with a friend or friends to demand for their apologies

He should be afright that if the PT is stronger and BIGGer in size than him... He should demand for an apologies from that MR K right on the spot. I bet that he will not and also don't dare to do anything to your friend at that moment.

Published that MR. K pic and his full name here.... I bet that he will be Black Listed in all gym and don't think that he will be able to become a Professional PT in S'ingapore or even in his own biz...

Something that I would love to suggest to your friend and to all PLUs -

If that studip PT (Mr K) who really call your friend - F**King GAY.... think that we all PLU should stand together dressed in PINK and walk up into FC and confront them that we all PLUs.. If they don't apologised to your friend... we should all terminate our memebership from them!!!

[DarkLord]

maptravel86, on May 30 2011, 12:28 AM, said:

Thanks for your suggestion, my friend just sms me that he has just posted in STOMP

http://talkback.stom...253#post3100253

dun publish in the forum.. publish it in seen la.

[bigbulge]

Veil_of_Ignorance, on May 30 2011, 11:14 AM, said:

Why doesn't the actual victim directly post his experience here instead of asking a friend to do so?

A very empathic friend...

But if it helps, just re-read the whole incident substituting the "my friend"
and "he" into "I" (w00t)

If not, CF might come into this website and shout again "BE A MAN! WRITE THE COMPLAINT YOURSELF!"

sigh~

[Veil_...]

The question is: Was there an assault?

Would the victim want to lodge a formal complaint on assault or over bad customer service?


The issue of assault was considered in Amutha Valli d/o Krishnan v Titular Superior of the Redemptorist Fathers in Singapore and Others [2009], The Novena Church Exorcism case. In that case, it was held that throughout the entire event, with the exception of one instance, the defendants did not say or do anything that could be apprehended by the plaintiff as a threat to her person.

The one instance was this statement: “If I have the power of God, I will knock your head”. But the circumstances in which they were uttered – the defendant was not standing near the plaintiff - meant that there could not have been an apprehension of immediate force on the part of the plaintiff. Hence the claim of assault was dismissed.

In the current California Fitness case, the victim had asked why K scolded him gay. K replied "Because you are a fucking gay" and then rushed towards and stood very close to the victim. The victim felt threatened by K's behaviour as K was a bigger built than him. Thus both words ("fucking gay") and the action (the sudden rush) had caused an apprehension of immediate criminal force to the victim. The elements of an assault had been clearly made out.

This post has been edited by Veil_of_Ignorance: 30 May 2011 - 11:55 AM

[Veil_...]

Why doesn't the actual victim directly post his experience here instead of asking a friend to do so?

[DarkLord]

maptravel86, on May 29 2011, 09:34 PM, said:

My friend said he has considered to write to ST forum but he also worried that his name or particular need to be revealed to ST forum as ST forum needs reader to fill up their particular.

Do u means that it is possible to make police report about a trainer scolding member "fucking gay"? Do police entertain this type of complain?
So does this mean my friend go to the police station and said "Good morning sir, a california fitness personal trainer scolded me as a fucking gay". What can the police do?

Only your name would be published, if you are really afraid, then ask ST to us an alias.

maptravel86, on May 29 2011, 10:23 PM, said:

My friend only noticed that the trainers wore name tags towards the end of the incident. He managed to get name of the male trainer who repeatedly scold him "fucking gay".

I have censored the name of the trainer when I post my friend mail that he forwarded to me here and put it as Mr K as I thought one of the forum rule is no personal attack with name?

After he left the gym, he realised that he should have taken note of all the names of the staff that are involved in the incident. But he said he is not going back to get the names for his own safety. He is also puzzled why they kept forcing him to show his membership card. He was so traumatized by the whole incident that for a moment he though that they want his membership card so that they will know his particulars like his name and address and send someone to beat him up, go to his house to hang pig head, pour paint or make nuisance call.

I remember reading an article about foreigner get scolded for removing tissue paper that singaporean placed to reserved table at food centre. So is this what happen when you ask the female trainer not to put her book to reserved the machine or remove her book she used to reserved machine?

Anyone know why the staffs keep asking my friend for his membership card?

publish the names, and if need, ask a few friends to go back with you, preferably with a secret phone on voice recording and another one ready to take video anytime.

[One_of_us]

maptravel86, on May 30 2011, 08:15 AM, said:

My friend has told the manager wearing grey long sleeve shirt that Mr K has scolded him "fucking gay" but the manager did not do anything and ask his staff to get his membership card instead. Then as my friend is leaving and in the lift, he heard the manager and his staff laughing and giggling. Do you still think it will work if my friend go back there to file a complaint? The staff did not take the incident seriously and did not do anything when mr k repeatedly scold my friend "fucking gay" at least 3 times in front of his own client and colleagues.

That doesn't make much difference. Whatever their attitude was, it was before your friend sent them a letter of complaint. Now they had some time to think about.

It will be helpful if your friend goes back to CF as I suggested, accompanied by a person that can add weight to his presence and force them to be civil. An older, serious business-like person would be best. The ideal would be if his father is a lawyer who accompanies his son to resolve this issue. I don't know the laws of SG, but to make a hidden recording of a conversation that one is part of is legal in many places. It is also useful if the person accompanying your friend has a digital camera hanging from his neck. All this will make them take your friend seriously, and behave more carefully.

If the type of scum that staffs these CF gyms can be extremely agressive, your friend could take more people with him, who then could wait outside, but visible to the CF guys, while the two go in to talk to the manager.

Quote

Most likely CF will defend his own staff and cover up for them and turn around to accuse my friend instead. For example mr k who stare at my friend turn around and say my friend is staring at him. CF will do the same thing to protect it's image.

Your friend should expect a hostile reception, and he should be prepared NOT TO DISCUSS the episode if they are confrontational. "I am not here to argue with you, but to follow up with my complaint and see that an investigation is in progress." "WE come to see if CF management is able to handle this issue, or you are covering it up and we need to involve the the authorities"... . Your companion with the camera can take pictures of the photos of the persons involved, as your friend recognize them. He can even take pictures on the spot if it becomes a scene of discussions.

Quote

Even if there is security camera, can it record verbal abuse and record the word "fucking gay"?

It depends. Some security cameras only take periodic pictures and no sound. But a picture can tell who approached who, and with what attitude. If the trainers converged on your friend in an agitated way, this will reveal that the incident happened like your friend described.

One can understand if your friend is very affected by this episode and only wants to forget about it. It is also a case that can give him significant growth if he forces himself a little and takes action, even if his knees are shaking. If he mantains a minimum of control and has supportive company, the risk of his actions is minimal. And he can gain a lot of self-confidence and assertiveness if he gets some positive results.

This post has been edited by One_of_us: 30 May 2011 - 10:25 AM

[ice_creme]

Join a shitty gym, you deserve the shitty treatment it comes with. C'est la vie.

[maptra...]

One_of_us, on May 30 2011, 02:07 AM, said:

Perhaps your friend should not wait a week to get a reply from CF. He sent an email, so they should have received his letter by now.

He should go to CF , with copy of his emailed letter on hand, specifically to talk to a manager about this incident. He should go accompanied by another person, if possible another member, to witness the conversation.

The first purpose should be to identify the people involved, the Mr. K and the others through him.

The second purpose is to see that CF opens a formal case about the incident, and that your letter has been filed.

CF should get a clear message the the issue will not be dropped, unless they offer a reasonable solution and act on it. Your friend's rapport should not be threatening but firm. "I'm sorry I have to do this ... for the good of the membership"
You have a good point about the security cameras. If they don't have any, they SHOULD have. And if they have, they must search the recordings for
evidence.


It is very common that random assaults cannot be documented by pictures nor witnesses. So an accusation without proof should still be taken seriously, especially when there are no indications that the accuser has other motives.

My friend has told the manager wearing grey long sleeve shirt that Mr K has scolded him "fucking gay" but the manager did not do anything and ask his staff to get his membership card instead. Then as my friend is leaving and in the lift, he heard the manager and his staff laughing and giggling. Do you still think it will work if my friend go back there to file a complaint? The staff did not take the incident seriously and did not do anything when mr k repeatedly scold my friend "fucking gay" at least 3 times in front of his own client and colleagues. Most likely CF will defend his own staff and cover up for them and turn around to accuse my friend instead. For example mr k who stare at my friend turn around and say my friend is staring at him. CF will do the same thing to protect it's image.

Even if there is security camera, can it record verbal abuse and record the word "fucking gay"?

This post has been edited by maptravel86: 30 May 2011 - 08:17 AM

[maptra...]

Any one has the photo and name of the staffs at California fitness orchard branch so that my friend can identify the name of all the staffs involved with one of them scolding him "fucking gay". My friend is not going back to that gym now as he fear that the California fitness staff continue to harass him. I am not their member so I can't help my friend to take a picture of the staff photo that they usually displayed on board in most gym. Anyone here can help to put the name and staff photo of california fitness orchard branch somewhere?

[amicab...]

where is customer service?

[One_of_us]

maptravel86, on May 29 2011, 11:01 PM, said:

I always thought that California fitness is a gay-friendly club but when the trainer scold my friend "fucking gay" and get supported by his colleagues who did not do anything, I doubt so.

In my friend's letter of complain he said "To my horror, when that personal trainer told the manager that I am on a hurry, the manager and his staff were giggling and laughing."

So will this anti-gay establishment who did not take things seriously penalize the trainers and give my friend compensation. My friend doubt so and so do I.
I think that personal trainer and CF also know my friend can't do much about this since it is not criminal offence and that is why that personal trainer is so daring to shout "fucking gay" loudly at least 3 times in front of his client and his colleagues.

So that this mean my friend can't make police report?

Then how to go about filing a civil offence against that trainer. Do my friend has to go to extend to engage a lawyer. Will he be able to win such a lawsuit?

Any lawyer here can give some advice?

Perhaps your friend should not wait a week to get a reply from CF. He sent an email, so they should have received his letter by now.

He should go to CF , with copy of his emailed letter on hand, specifically to talk to a manager about this incident. He should go accompanied by another person, if possible another member, to witness the conversation.

The first purpose should be to identify the people involved, the Mr. K and the others through him.

The second purpose is to see that CF opens a formal case about the incident, and that your letter has been filed.

CF should get a clear message the the issue will not be dropped, unless they offer a reasonable solution and act on it. Your friend's rapport should not be threatening but firm. "I'm sorry I have to do this ... for the good of the membership"

gstc82, on May 30 2011, 12:06 AM, said:

these places have secirity cameras everywhere except in change room. it will be captured in camera.

your friend shd have immediately call the police for assistance.

You have a good point about the security cameras. If they don't have any, they SHOULD have. And if they have, they must search the recordings for evidence.

It is very common that random assaults cannot be documented by pictures nor witnesses. So an accusation without proof should still be taken seriously, especially when there are no indications that the accuser has other motives.